Should you join the nuclear Navy? (NUPOC)
Perhaps you, or somebody for whom you care, is considering joining the nuclear Navy. You might already have heard the recruiters promising the world. I will provide you with one objective critique of the "nuke" experience in terms of what the Navy promises versus what it delivers.
Author and Army veteran John T. Reed inspired me to write this with his article, "Should you go to, or stay at, West Point?" Mr. Reed's observations about the Army are utterly relevant to the Navy. Peruse his article if you have time.
At the age of 20, I committed to serve in the U.S. Navy via the NUPOC delayed commissioning program. I attended OCS a month after graduating from college, received a commission as an ensign (O-1), served on active duty for 5.5 years, and honorably left active duty as a lieutenant (O-3). I worked on a Los Angeles class fast attack submarine home ported at Pearl Harbor, HI for about 3 years of my active duty experience, which included a 2003 deployment to the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. The rest of my time was training and shore based work (a.k.a. "shore tour").
My following analysis of what the Navy nuclear program promises to do for you is based on claims presented on the Navy's recruiting websites and my personal recollections of interacting with recruiters. If you are thinking about going the enlisted route, my comments should generally still be relevant, although I highly recommend speaking with somebody who already served as an enlisted nuke. Give no weight to second hand information from spouses and mothers or from promises coming from people still in the military about what service in the program will do for them after they get out.
| The Sales Pitch | Reality |
| The Navy's nuclear program is an elite nuclear engineering program. | FALSE. You will not research or design anything while in the Navy, which is contrary to what the word engineering implies to a student. The recruiters technically aren't lying because the broader, post-academic use of engineering includes what nukes actually do, but the recruiters know they are misleading you.
The Navy will train you to be a nuclear operator. If you want to be a nuclear engineer, get a relevant engineering degree, and go to work for a reactor manufacturer, such as General Electric or Westinghouse. The program is challenging, but it is not as selective as it advertises. It only requires one semester of calculus and one semester of calculus based physics. I interviewed with the Director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, a four star admiral, with a group of around 20 people. The admiral only declined one interviewee. During my time in the Navy, the nuclear community was actually over-manned with junior officers, so it can't be that selective. |
| Excitement!!! Being a Navy nuke is soooo exciting!!!! | FALSE. There is no glory or excitement in nuclear operation. It is utterly monotonous, repetitive, and mind-numbing. In the nuclear world, boring is good.
A typical shift (standing “watch”) involves staring at meters and gauges, reviewing logs of those instruments' indications, listening to people complain about the Navy, listening to people discuss what they will do when they get out of the Navy, and little more. You might think this is purely a matter of opinion. It isn't. If you don't believe me, ask around. This experience is in no way unique to me or my former submarine. |
| You will do important work that makes the nation and world safer. | HIGHLY DEBATABLE. I'll leave it at that.
You will certainly be told frequently, once you're in the military, that this statement is true. |
| You will be highly desirable to civilian industry after you leave the military. | MISLEADING. Some companies, such as General Electric, like recruiting former military officers. Note that I write “military officers” generally; not “Navy nuke officers” in particular.
I am aware of only one industry that specifically wants former Navy nukes—the commercial nuclear power industry, including supporting services. If you know for a fact right now that you want to climb the operations ladder at a civilian nuclear generating station, the Navy might be the way to go. The idea that all, or even most, employers will crawl over each other to hire you because you were in the nuke program is unequivocally FALSE. Employers look for directly relevant experience on your resume. If it isn't there—and it probably isn't if you're trying to do something dissimilar from what you did in the military—you will most likely not be interviewed. |
| You will gain valuable leadership experience at a young age. | TRUE-ish. The Navy delivered on its promise of putting me in charge of people at a young age. However, I would not say that this equates to leadership. What I really learned, mostly by trial and error, was the art of supervision.
Enlisted caveat: While this is a benefit for young officers, it is a detriment for enlisted submarine sailors. Supervising reactor plant operations is primarily the role of the officers lowest in rank and seniority. This means that enlisted nuclear personnel constantly have to deal with the least experienced, least knowledgeable officers to get anything accomplished. |
| Driving a surfaced submarine is an amazing experience. | TRUE. My best Navy memory is of the time I stood “Surfaced Officer of the Deck” as we approached Australia. The weather was great, and the water was calm. The continent was rising up in front of me. I hadn't been qualified to do this for very long, but at that moment it was just me, another guy serving as my lookout, and the $900M warship upon which I sat.
If only these types of things had occupied more than about 0.12% (literally) of my total time in the military . . . (sigh). |
| You will see the world. | NOT GAURANTEED. This is a crap shoot. When I deployed in 2003, the political climate did not favor us visiting many ports. Submarines also have special needs that prevent them from visiting some ports where surface ships or non-nuclear ships are free to dock.
In general, I recommend against joining any branch of the military to “see the world.” If you have the resources, check out the Semester at Sea. You will visit more of the world in a few months than you will visit in a decade of military service. |
| The pay is good. | TRUE (by common standards). I earned more money than all of my college friends my first 5 years out of school. If I had stayed Navy and returned to Hawaii for another submarine tour, I would be earning solidly over $100k per year and paying only about 15% in taxes because a good chunk of military income is tax free.
By comparison, I'm paying about 34% in taxes now. That means I'm keeping about as much as during my later years in the Navy even though my pre-tax income is much higher. It has been a kick in the balls. The NUPOC program also allowed me to exit college with zero debt and money in the bank. I'm very thankful for that. College debt is a serious problem for many 20- and even 30-somethings these days. Keep in mind that money is only one factor you should consider. Military personnel tend to work very long hours. For much of my time in the Navy, I would have been happier to work half the time for half the money. How much is your life worth? |
I hope you find this helpful. If there is sufficient demand, I will address additional areas of concern. In conclusion, here's a satirical video from The Onion that demonstrates exactly what the military is really like. It's about the Army, but the Navy is the same (minus the combat).
Tags: critique, military, Navy, nuclear, Nuclear Propulsion Officer Candidate, NUPOC, recruiters, review
January 11th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Thanks for this article, it is very helpful. I wanted to go into the nuclear Navy. After reading this article and doing research on my own I soon realized that it was not what they claimed.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
I'm happy to have provided you with useful information, Bill. Thanks for commenting.
January 13th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Hey thanks for the good information. I'm a college freshman, just looking into this stuff 'cause the money's really attractive. I got some questions that maybe you could help me with:
There a place to workout on the submarine? Free weights, treadmills.
Say I want to go to graduate school after my time's up; this pretty feasible? Any anecdotes?
Given the above, you think I'll have time/room/allowance to bring textbooks and continue learning while I'm in the sub?
Is it like movies where we'd dock and be able to go into the port city for some old-fashioned relaxation?
Thanks a bundle.
January 13th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Submarines typically have a couple of dumbells, a treadmill, and a collapsable bench shoved in a corner somewhere. So the answer to your first question is "yes," although most people do not exercise on board because it is inconvenient. Overweight submariners are common.
Once you're out of the military, there's nothing to stop you from going to graduate school. I spent the last year of my military service on "shore tour" in Great Lakes, IL. A couple of my peers completed MBAs at Northwestern and University of Chicago.
Continued learning on a submarine is improbable. A few of my coworkers tried to complete distance learning courses, but none succeeded.
Getting "old-fashioned relaxation" is not guaranteed, as I wrote above.
February 1st, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Dave,
Thanks for the useful website.. I am currently considering joining NUPOC. As an officer that is committed for five years.. how will the tours work out?? How often will you be on a shore tour?? I'm married and I'm concerned about how long I may be gone from my wife.. Also, if I'm on a sub, how much communication will I have with my wife?? I realize that this could vary depending on what type of sub or boat your on but any information is helpful as I think about this very important decision.
Thanks!
February 1st, 2010 at 4:55 pm
You're welcome, Ben. Thanks for commenting.
If you go submarines, your first ~14 months as a new officer will be training. Then you will serve on a submarine for about 3 years before you go to shore tour, or you will finish your contractual obligation on the ship if you do not want to go to shore tour. Shore tours typically last 1 or 2 years, but they can be longer for some assignments. The path is slightly different if you go surface ships. If you stay Navy, you will go back for more training and then another sea tour as a "Department Head" after your first shore tour.
The military in any capacity is rough on personal relationships. Deployments occur about every 18 months in the Navy and are nominally 6 months long, but they can be longer. My 2003 deployment lasted for 7.5 months. The submarine we relieved had been driving circles in the Persian Gulf for 10 months!
The good news is that modern submarines are not completely isolated. You can send and receive e-mail, which is a huge quality of life boost. Getting messages from friends and family while you're out to sea is like opening Christmas presents.
There is also a chance that you could be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa, or another such place for 6 to 18 months. Read about individual augmentation (IA). IAs where very common when I was on shore tour in 2006. In fact, I got nominated three times to go to Iraq for a year, but I was not selected from the nominees. I don't know how frequently this goes on these days, but everybody considering joining the Navy or Air Force should be aware of IA because it's essentially a back door draft.
February 5th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Hi Dave,
Thank you for the useful information. The information about individual augmentation is very shocking; I never thought a nuke would be eligible for this type of thing. Don't they claim that nukes are in high demand, why would they send them to Iraq or Afghanistan, I am sure there are no nuclear reactors there.
Also, can you expand some more on the individual augmentation (IA). Is it voluntary, and if you go what would you do there?
February 5th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
IA is the practice of using an individual from a Navy or Air Force unit to augment an Army unit. When I was dealing with IA in 2006, people had the opportunity to volunteer whenever there was a call for augmentees. If nobody volunteered, the command receiving the call for names selected people. I was not a volunteer, and I probably would have been selected the third time I was nominated had my request for release from active duty not been approved. (I was at the end of my commitment and received an honorable discharge.)
IA happens because the Army needs warm bodies. For that reason, I cannot make any promises about what you would do as an augmentee. I knew of sailors working communications bunkers in Iraq, working public affairs in Afghanistan (with zero relevant experience, I might add), and manning 50-cal. machine guns on convoy trucks. Your guess is as good as mine these days.
February 5th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Thank you Dave, you are a great source of information. I am seriously considering NUPOC as an option and the information posted here is welcomed.
Getting back to your original post, the only true things that are on the table is the leadership experience and the good pay. From the information I have gathered, your other points are correct. For example, civilian nuclear operators “laugh” at the technology and complexity of the navy’s nuclear reactors. There is also the fact that there is no design involved in the program, hence the term “engineering” is being used loosely. Your point on excitement is pretty much common sense, how much fun can you have on a ship or sub? After asking my brother which served in a carrier, he confirmed that.
Now a few questions, did your experience as a nuke help secure a good job? Out of the time you were in the navy, how much was at sea? How difficult was power school and prototype, how much did you enjoy that time? Did you earn close to $100K all the years you were in? Did you ever regret your decision while you were in? Do you regret it now that you are out?
Hey Dave, sorry for the long post but you went through the process and are free to tell the truth, unlike active duty personnel.
Thanks
February 6th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
I was assigned to a sea-going command for about 33 months, which is typical. Of that time, I was actually under water for approximately 1 year aggregate. Most of this was my ship's 7.5 months long deployment in 2003. You should know that you would be "standing duty" about twice a week in port, which means you spend those nights on board. This usually includes a day of the weekend about twice every three weeks. So plan on working six days a week even when your ship is tied to a pier.
You will not gross over $100k in a year unless you come back to another ship as a Department Head. The military pay scale gives you the base pay rates. If you live outside the continental United States (a.k.a. Hawaii, for submariners), you will get "cost of living allowance" (COLA), which is very significant.
Navy nuclear training has little to do with analytical ability and everything to do with memorizing large quantities of out-of-context information in a short amount of time. I did well as an undergraduate and finished in 3.5 years. I performed as well as any of my Navy peers when it came to operating, but I continually struggled with regurgitating information for written tests. The result is that I basically lived at work. If you do well, you will find the training pipeline tolerable. Otherwise, you will have no life at all. Two enlisted students committed suicide while I was in the "prototype" phase of training, and another snapped. That is the kind of pressure people are under and the kind of environment the military creates. Your recruiter will blame the individuals; don't buy it.
I recently decided to get back into nuclear power. The commercial nuclear power industry pays very well, and my Navy experience is directly responsible for my current occupation. The problem is that I'm doing the same job I did in the Navy, supervising operations, when I want to be involved on the business end of things. Time will tell if I can make this transition smoothly. My Navy service at least got me into the energy industry, so I give it credit for that.
With some years in hindsight and a relatively high paying job directly related to my experience in the Navy, I tell you without hesitation that I would not do it again. People who are getting out of the military usually go through something called the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), which includes taking the Myers-Briggs personality test. My results labeled me as a "utilitarian" personality, an assessment with which I completely agree. The veteran facilitating the seminar emphatically stated that, "We run utilitarians out of the military faster than (something I don't remember)!" I remember thinking, "Wow, I wish somebody would have told me that before I became an indentured servant." That's the bottom line for me--the military was completely wrong for my personality. If you don't like your first civilian job, you just get another. If you don't like the military, you suffer until your time is up. Spending the majority of my 20s doing something I did not enjoy is an opportunity cost I would not pay again.
Of course, your personality might have little in common with mine. For what reasons are you considering the program?
February 7th, 2010 at 11:14 am
I wanted to serve as an officer in any of the military branches. Looking for the branches which offered something related to engineering, I found the Air Force which was my first choice and then I learned about NUPOC. The very first thing that attracted me to it was the pay while in school, but that is not a factor anymore since I graduate April 2010. Then, there was the leadership experience and learning about nuclear power, having that experience to obtain a good job later. Those are the main reasons I considered the program.
But you made a very good point, it is important to determine whether that is something you want to do. As you can see my reasons are not that I like nuclear power or the navy. Like my brother told me, being in a ship or a sub for 6 months is no life, and power school and prototype are in the same category. After 5 hard years of studying and working, I feel that what I really need is job that allows me to live a good life. I want to have a relationship; I want to be able to do things I enjoy after work. It seems like the navy will not offer me that.
Dave thank you for responding; do you know if the Air Force side is basically the same thing?
February 7th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Of all the military people I've met, the Air Force people seemed the least disgruntled about their jobs. The best advice I can give you is find an Air Force veteran who has gone through the program in which you are interested.
June 14th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info it was good to have a source not as biased as a recruiter or active duty officer. I am currently a senior in Nuclear Engineering with a 3.7 GPA, I want to get a PhD someday, however my wife and I are not in the most finacialy conducive situation to spend 4 more years in college even with a fellowship. We also want to start a family sooner than later. My father was in the army my whole live so I think I've got a good idea of the stresses it puts on a family. I also feel that the NUPOC program is a life experiance that I would like to have. I just wanted to know your thoughts on serving my 6 years then going back to school once we are a little more financially stable. Thanks again and sorry for the long post.
June 14th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
I'm glad to hear you found this information useful, Aaron. Are you interested in NUPOC primarily because of the opportunity to work with nuclear power or primarily because you want to serve in the Navy?
In the case of the former, I would recommend exploring opportunities with the commercial nuclear power industry before you even think about committing to the Navy. That industry is undermanned, pays well, and is dominated by large corporations that commonly offer tuition reimbursement as an employment benefit.
In the case of the latter, I can only wish you good luck. You probably know a lot about military life from the point of view of a dependent, but that is not the same as seeing it from the point of view of an active duty service member. The problem isn't what the military offers in the way of training (it generally delivers in that regard); the problem is everything else that comes with it: the juvenile work environment, "hurry up and wait," enhanced probability of death at a young age, etc. What does your father think about the prospect of your joining? Just be sure to get a few more opinions from non-recruiters. Make sure you really understand what you will be getting if you sign on the dotted line.
Officer commitments are for 5 years on active duty; enlisted commitments are for 6. I want to make sure you understand that the NUPOC program is a commissioning path--a way to become an officer. I hope some recruiter isn't trying to get you to enlist even though you will soon be a college graduate.
Check out the GI Bill website to find out if it would even pay enough to cover your graduate education. I will eventually get an MBA using my employer's tuition reimbursement program, and going back to school will enable me to collect on the GI Bill money. So, for me, the GI Bill is gravy. It wouldn't cover tuition at a top tier business school even though I qualify for the maximum amount.
Also keep in mind the statistics--only 30% of GI Bill eligible veterans complete a degree with the money. The DoD makes a profit from the service members paying into the fund. That's the blunt truth about why they offer it.
July 27th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
I am an active duty nuclear-trained submarine officer currently on shore duty. The information provided on this site is the most accurate I have seen. Do not allow the signing bonus to bait you into making a hasty decision.
July 27th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Thanks for the backup, shipmate. Fare winds and following seas.
September 1st, 2010 at 12:10 am
Dave, my son is interested in the NUPOC program. If he decides to go surface (SWO), is he assured to get it if accepted into the program? Have you seen others ask for (SWO) and then be sent to subs after they leave OCS?
September 2nd, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Hi, Bob. Everyone who attends OCS has a "designator." For example, mine was "subnuc" (submarine nuclear). I cannot say what happened to everyone in my class after graduation and commissioning, but I can tell you that nobody had their designator changed during OCS unless they were medically disqualified from their first choice (which is more of an issue with prospective pilots). My class had 60-something candidates.
I originally told my recruiters that I wanted to go surface and serve on a aircraft carrier. At some point, they called me and told me that I would have a better chance of getting into the program if I chose subs. Naive, 20 years old Dave responded, "Well, okay. My first choice is to be in the program." In hindsight, they probably just wanted to shift their numbers to meet a quota. Getting accepted for surface nuke doesn't seem to be any different than going submarines.